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Time and date

Tuesday 8 July 2014, 6.30 PM UTC. #diaspora-meeting @ FreeNode.

Topics to discuss

Next release

Should we release during the next month?

Guidelines for adding agenda items

Do we need guidelines for adding items to this meeting agenda? In terms both of (a) what sort of items are appropriate, and (b) who can add items.

Close pod-specific issues

The official pod tracker should not have issues which relate only to one pod - unless the issue is proven to somehow relate to core code. By this of course, specific issues are meant. Currently there are 10 tagged as such. Of course it needs to be properly investigated whether those really are specific to

Find a motivated podmin for joindiaspora

Linked to the point above, we definitely need to better administrate joindiaspora. There is spammer accounts which have to be deleted, it is still running the really bugged version (no upgraded to released months ago)... What about asking if there is someone in the community who have enough time and sysadmin skills to correctly run the biggest pod of the network?

External communication

(Postponed from previous meeting)

We don't have much external engagement at the moment. Jason is doing good work with the Twitter account, but that's about it.

  • Should we be blogging and trying to engage press interest, etc, and if so, how should we go about this? Who would like to take part in this? UPDATE: we have just started blogging.
  • We still have the 'Planet' referred to in various places (for example, the wiki) but it has never been set up. Is this something that we still desire, and if so how should we go about setting it up?
  • SADMAN suggests creating a newsletter about Diaspora, its features and releases. It should be interesting for first-time users of pods. In the first issue: we don't have a clear list of what is featured and when, while this is very exciting. Another idea: To list the number of new inscriptions, and number of users. etc. An example

Communication through Diaspora HQ

(Postponed from previous meeting)

  • What kind of communication do we want through Diaspora HQ? Do we need more formal guidelines?
  • Ditto the blog

GitHub issue tags

Should we add two new tags for better controlling of issues:

  • 'needs loomio' - if issue needs a Loomio vote whether it is "wanted or not"
  • 'needs spec' - if issue needs specification work _before_ coding should start

FSSN - or alternative solutions?

We need to discuss the FSSN situation. Do we have alternatives? For example, in Finland it's only ~100€ to set up a non-profit, and needs only two people with Finnish address - rest of the board members can be abroad. Could we go with something like this instead? Finland only an example (Jason). Could not find any EU wide legal structures.

IRL Meeting

It would be really fun (and maybe productive?) to meet up IRL. (Discussion: The mozilla Paris Office can host us during a week end, maybe the Berlin office can do the same?


The official site has been DDOS recently, so everything (including Install guides in the wiki and tutorials) was down. What can we do against that?

What did we decide?

Next release

IRC Logs

[20:46] <jaywink> start whenever :)
[20:47] <goobs> OK, shall we pick a few items to discuss? It's a long list on that agenda...
[20:48] <goobs> If we're picking, my suggestions are :
[20:48] <goobs> * Close pod-specific issues
[20:48] <goobs> * External communication
[20:48] <goobs> * DDOS of
[20:49] * raven24 looking through the agenda
[20:49] <jaywink> sure. I'd love to talk about the FSSN, next release and IRL meeting :)
[20:51] <raven24> well, the "big fish" should have a more complete audience, I guess
[20:53] <jaywink> so... anyone want to throw a topic? or shall we just shout out some?
[20:53] <goobs> I think FSSN needs a separate, dedicated meeting when all the key people can attend.
[20:53] <raven24> goob's list seems good, let's do that
[20:54] <goobs> First item: release in next month? (We agreed to do that every meeting.)
[20:55] <raven24> I'd say we try to get in as many PRs as possible
[20:55] <raven24> we have way too many open ones
[20:55] <raven24> and then we can see how far we get till end of july
[20:55] <raven24> (... good thing now are the 424903145923
[20:56] <goobs> I don't think we're ready yet - only release if a hotfix is needed.
[20:56] <raven24> *holidays at most schools/univerities
[20:57] <jaywink> yeah, let's just not hold back too long or we'll be doing a major release again :) we should aim imho for more minor releases
[20:57] <jaywink> so that's a no for that, ok?
[20:57] <raven24> agreed, what i'm impying is that hopefully in the summer we have more time to get things done
[20:58] <goobs> raven24, jaywink do you with jhass want to set a milestone and add issues to that?
[20:58] <raven24> sounds good
[20:58] <jaywink> goobs, there already is a next-minor and next-major
[20:59] <goobs> Oh sorry, so we have. Perhaps see if anything else can be added to next-minor.
[20:59] <jaywink> but I'm not totally sure what was jonnes logic there - imho we could just always have next :)
[20:59] *** offSchub nennt sich jetzt DenSchub.
[20:59] <raven24> hi, DenSchub
[20:59] <DenSchub> whoops
[20:59] <jaywink> currently we have 18 closed issues in next-minor, none in next-major
[21:00] <DenSchub> sorry, stuck in a traffic jam. ahoy :)
[21:00] <jaywink> so if that is to be read correctly, we are still on track for a minor release :)
[21:00] <raven24> jaywink: yeah, haven't noticed that till now ...
[21:00] <jaywink> hey DenSchub
[21:00] <goobs> I guess next-major is for anything which would in itself cause a major release (e.g. major new feature).
[21:00] <jaywink> yeah that sounds logical
[21:00] <goobs> Hey DenSchub. Get yourself a coffee and jump in :)
[21:01] <jaywink> or wine! like me :D
[21:01] <goobs> :D
[21:01] <raven24> or a sandwitch
[21:01] <DenSchub> i'll stick with water for now ;)
[21:01] <goobs> OK, sounds like we're not ready for next-minor within next 4 weeks. Is everyone agreed?
[21:01] <fla> heyguys
[21:01] <goobs> Hey fla.
[21:01] <raven24> hi
[21:01] <fla> sorry still in the pub
[21:02] <fla> but reading
[21:02] <raven24> goobs: agreed
[21:02] <goobs> I wish I was in the pub. Just got my glass of water here.
[21:03] <goobs> If no one has more comments on release in next month….
[21:03] <goobs> item 2: Close pod-specific issues
[21:04] <jaywink> yes please :)
[21:04] <goobs> "The official pod tracker should not have issues which relate only to one pod - unless the issue is proven to somehow relate to core code."
[21:04] <jaywink> diaspora/diaspora/issues should be a core bug tracker, not pod specific - even though joindiaspora is still as a branch in the core repo..
[21:05] <jaywink> imho maxwell should move it outside to his own repo or something
[21:05] <DenSchub> i was about killing it a year ago
[21:05] <DenSchub> i'll talk to him again
[21:05] <jaywink> well it might be fair to negotiate first :)
[21:05] <raven24> close issues: yes, maybe reference IRC or the mailing list, but lets move them away from the issue tracker
[21:06] <goobs> I'm happy to closes issues if they are only about performance problems due to the way a pod is hosted – if it is affecting only one pod but is caused by a bug in the D* software – for example, – it should be kept.
[21:06] <goobs> Oops, wrong link -
[21:07] <raven24> goobs: yeah, that clearly a bug
[21:07] <raven24> but performance issues is a gray area, I think
[21:07] <goobs> Sure - you guys who really understand D's code should decide on those cases!
[21:07] <fla> imo the solution would be to find a new podmin for jd
[21:08] <goobs> Yeh, fla, that's on a separate agenda item.
[21:08] <jaywink> fla, there should be no jd issues in the issue tracker even if there would be another podmin
[21:08] <jaywink> that item is a gray area - how do you tell maxwell to give up his pod? ;)
[21:09] <goobs> I agree that jd branch should ideally be moved to a separate repo.
[21:09] <goobs> jaywink, fla, it would be good to discuss that issue separately.
[21:10] <goobs> Does anyone disagree with removing pod-specific issues which are not caused by bugs in the core software?
[21:10] <raven24> no objections
[21:10] <jaywink> supported
[21:11] <jaywink> and we also agree that jd code should not be in the main repo?
[21:11] <raven24> we should discuss that with maxwell, I don't like presenting people with finished facts
[21:12] <DenSchub> raven24++
[21:12] <jaywink> yeah of course
[21:12] <jaywink> but I mean, in principle
[21:13] <goobs> Agree with raven24. We'd like it to be moved, let's not present him with a fait accompli (the D Inc way of working!)
[21:13] <raven24> yeah, in principle the "upstream" repo should be "clean"
[21:13] <goobs> There's a sort of related issue of pruning old branches, but perhaps we should discuss that separately.
[21:14] <goobs> DenSchub, are you happy to talk to maxwell about moving the jd branch?
[21:14] <DenSchub> sure
[21:14] <goobs> Great - motion passed!
[21:15] <goobs> Now DenSchub is here, shall we discuss DDOS of
[21:15] <DenSchub> there was no ddos on
[21:15] <jaywink> :)
[21:15] <jaywink> and not sure what we could do if there was ;)
[21:15] <goobs> "The official site has been DDOS recently, so everything (including Install guides in the wiki and tutorials) was down. What can we do against that?" is what the agenda item says.
[21:16] <DenSchub> my webservers are... huge.
[21:16] <goobs> I don't know who added that. If there was no DDoS, there's not much to discuss!
[21:16] <goobs> DenSchub: show-off!
[21:16] <DenSchub> some freatking huge german media posted about diaspora some days ago, and I had no performance issues
[21:16] <jaywink> woot, who?
[21:16] <raven24> heise?
[21:16] <DenSchub> yeah
[21:17] <DenSchub>
[21:17] <raven24> when we had the release...
[21:17] <goobs> OK so forgetting the DDoS bit, I guess the question is can and should we have a back-up for when DenSchub's webservers go down for any reason?
[21:17] <jaywink> ah I skipped that post - the title was just odd lol
[21:17] <DenSchub> they linked the blog and even the wiki. had a HUGE traffic peak, but no perf issues
[21:17] <jaywink> "feedback option"
[21:17] <DenSchub> the DDoS was against the DNS-servers
[21:17] <goobs> But if there's been no DDoS it's not really an urgent issue.
[21:17] <DenSchub> which is nothing we can do against
[21:17] <DenSchub> like.. NEVER.
[21:18] <DenSchub> i mean..
[21:18] <goobs> It's good to know about the coverage/traffic and no performance issues.
[21:18] <DenSchub> and those guys have far more servers than i have
[21:18] <DenSchub> and actually, goobs, my servers are already mirrored to 3 locations
[21:18] <DenSchub> ;)
[21:19] <goobs> Sure. I'm only reporting what was in the agenda. Shall we move on? It sounds as though DenSchub has everything covered that can be covered.
[21:19] <DenSchub> i was thinking about migration to dyn's DNS services, which are faster and... bigger
[21:19] <goobs> Whoo!
[21:19] <DenSchub> unfortunately, i need sean to change the nameserver-records for the domain
[21:19] <goobs> When we can talk about FSSN and funding, we should talk about recompensing you for this work.
[21:20] <DenSchub> btw. may I add a point to the agenda?
[21:20] <goobs> Would you like me to ping Sean or have you asked him?
[21:20] <DenSchub> i haven't asked him, but I can do
[21:21] <goobs> If it's urgent, sure you can add it. Otherwise we have some items waiting for several months.
[21:21] <DenSchub> but actually i'd wait until we've got something from the fssn, those dyn folks are kinda expensive...
[21:21] <DenSchub> it's about the domain. which is still managed by dreamhost (which is bad.) and there is no real whois information except the dreamhost whois privacy service
[21:22] <goobs> OK, let's discuss that quickly now.
[21:22] <jaywink> don't pay anything you're not comfy with until we get the money from fssn and then vote on the payment ;)
[21:22] <goobs> Although I've got a feeling that Sean bought the domain, so may need him to be involved.
[21:23] <DenSchub> jaywink: i already paid for the next year (since i'm using their services myself), but... ;)
[21:23] <DenSchub> goobs: indeed...
[21:23] <DenSchub> maybe we should postpone this and invite sean the next time
[21:23] <goobs> Is there anything you need a group decision on about the domain, or is it a case of asking Sean to do something?
[21:23] <DenSchub> "invite" as in "forcing" him to participate.
[21:23] <jaywink> I wish we had a proper legal entity and not some crappy fssn that is of use to no one :( oh yeah - no discussion about that ;)
[21:24] <DenSchub> goobs: the thing is... who should we put in the whois-information...
[21:24] <DenSchub> and that's actually a tricky questions
[21:24] <DenSchub> given the fact we're waiting for 4 months now, i fear the fssn is not the right entity to manage the domains and appear in our whois :/
[21:24] <goobs> Ah. OK, we can probably discuss that now.
[21:25] <jaywink> it doesn't have to be a legal entity in the whois right?
[21:25] <goobs> Tell you what, our last agenda item tonight will be to set a date and time for a meeting to discuss only FSSN. And that might help to sort out a number of other issues, like this one...
[21:26] <DenSchub> true
[21:26] <DenSchub> add "who should appear in the whois information for" to the list then
[21:26] <goobs> jaywink, no but an organisation name probably looks better than an individual.
[21:26] <DenSchub> also add "move away from dreamhost? to a plattform multiple people could get root-access to the domain?"
[21:27] <jaywink> goobs, well yes, but since we don't *have* one, it's slightly difficult
[21:27] <goobs> OK, will add that to the agenda if it can wait.
[21:27] <goobs> jaywink, I know...
[21:27] <jaywink> and whois needs to be set
[21:27] <raven24> since we are in need of a legal entity, have we had any progress with the "e.V." ?
[21:27] <goobs> OK, if we can postpone that, let's talk about communication.
[21:27] <DenSchub> because that's another issue. as the DDoS was going on, I wanted to change the nameservers as quickly as possible. unfortunately, sean was sleeping and it took 12 hours to get the changes done
[21:27] <DenSchub> postpone. :)
[21:28] <jaywink> what is "e.V"?
[21:28] <goobs> There are two agenda items on communication: 1. External communication (how to improve it). 2. Guidelines for using Diaspora HQ and blog.
[21:29] <DenSchub> jaywink: we'll discuss that on the fssn-meeting
[21:29] <raven24> "eingetragener Verein" - association, non commercial. what KDE is doing in Germany
[21:29] <goobs> External communication. jaywink is staffing the Twitter account (excellently), and we've just started blogging.
[21:29] <goobs> We still have the 'Planet' referred to in various places (for example, the wiki) but it has never been set up. Is this something that we still desire, and if so how should we go about setting it up?
[21:30] <DenSchub> jonne wrote most of the code already, i guess we should be able to finish it "fast" if needed
[21:30] <raven24> I would love a "planet" that would be able to follow blogs as well as peoples atom streams from D*
[21:30] <raven24> (by specific tags)
[21:31] <goobs> What else needs to happen to get this up and running?
[21:32] <DenSchub> a) finish the code b) find some feeds to bootstrap the planet?
[21:34] <raven24> can we set a target, like, within the next month?
[21:35] <goobs> OK. Would it be worth posting from DHQ to ask people to suggest feeds we should include? We could write a blog post as well. I could work with jaywink and fla on that.
[21:36] <DenSchub> raven24: i fear we cannot do that. I'm overloaded with work, i'm not sure about jonne and i don't know if someone else might jump in
[21:36] <raven24> ok, no hurry then
[21:37] <goobs> We should probably wait until the code is (almost) finished before asking people for content suggestions then.
[21:37] <raven24> so, lets produce content and the planet comes later
[21:38] <raven24> no harm in blogging about D*, even without a planet
[21:38] <goobs>  But the answer to the question in the agenda is: Yes we want to have a planet.
[21:38] <raven24> e.g. we could also include the railsgirls 
[21:38] <DenSchub> we could collect some nice topic-ideas and spread those over our private blogs ;)
[21:38] <goobs> raven24, we can still blog. I meant wait to ask people for suggestions for feeds to include in the planet.
[21:39] <raven24> yeah, sure
[21:39] <goobs> OK, so we'll all get personal-blogging then … ;)
[21:39] <DenSchub> *those who have
[21:39] <DenSchub> :)
[21:40] <goobs> The next item is also a suggestion from SANDMAN about a newsletter. What are your views on this?
[21:40] <DenSchub> what's the exact suggestion?
[21:40] <DenSchub> we should provide a newsletter?
[21:40] <goobs>
[21:40] <DenSchub> ah, pardon
[21:41] <goobs> creating a newsletter about Diaspora, its features and releases. It should be interesting for first-time users of pods. In the first issue: we don't have a clear list of what is featured and when, while this is very exciting. Another idea: To list the number of new inscriptions, and number of users. etc. An example:
[21:41] <DenSchub> mh. i don't think that's necessary. we have the blog and diaspora hq's profile
[21:41] <raven24> I'd rather see an up-to-date blog
[21:42] <goobs> I agree. I don't object to the newsletter idea, but I don't see it as a priority. If people who want a newsletter want to volunteer to create it, that would be OK. But the blog should be able to fulfil most criteria of a newsletter.
[21:42] <goobs> I'm really going to try to create more content for the blog.
[21:42] <DenSchub> i'm not sure about "If people who want a newsletter want to volunteer to create it, that would be OK."
[21:42] <jaywink> regular blog content, not necessarely official comms but just interesting posts
[21:43] <DenSchub> the thing is... official project communcation should be done by the projects core, it should be discusses in meetings in stuff
[21:43] <DenSchub> _somebody_ writing _something_ about the project and claiming it's the projects newsletter might result in bad stuff
[21:43] <goobs> DenSchub - that wasn't clearly expressed. I meant … actually, it doesn't matter. You're right.
[21:44] <goobs> :)
[21:44] <goobs> Once the planet is going, we can always choose to link to content from those volunteers, and it won't appear as an official comms.
[21:45] <goobs> OK, so is everyone agreed that we focus on the blog as our external communication tool, and DHQ account as the internal one?
[21:45] <DenSchub> right
[21:45] <raven24> okay
[21:45] <DenSchub> yeah
[21:46] <raven24> so, next item?
[21:46] <jaywink> IRL Meeting? :)
[21:47] <goobs> OK then - IRL meeting.
[21:47] <jaywink> I would _totally_ be up for this
[21:47] <goobs> You're all so ugly so I won't turn up ;)
[21:47] <jaywink> :DD
[21:48] <DenSchub> ... says the one who lives in great britain
[21:48] <DenSchub> no. jokes aside, i guess that would be awesome
[21:48] <goobs> haha!
[21:48] <raven24> :)
[21:48] <goobs> It's a lovely idea. But would it be better to discuss it more informally, within D?
[21:49] <DenSchub> since we won't do a work-week like event, i guess, yeah )
[21:49] <DenSchub> *:)
[21:49] --> flaburgan ( hat diesen Kanal betreten.
[21:49] *** jhass|off gibt flaburgan Erlaubnis zu schreiben.
[21:49] *** jhass|off gibt flaburgan Operator-Status.
[21:49] <raven24> yeah 
[21:49] <jaywink> well, all we need is 1) someone to secure a location and 2) a date
[21:49] <jaywink> the rest will happen by itself
[21:49] <flaburgan> hey
[21:49] <flaburgan> sorry can I have a small summary?
[21:49] <jaywink> and to me, mozilla paris or berlin sounds awesome :)
[21:50] --> svbergerem ( hat diesen Kanal betreten.
[21:50] *** jhass|off gibt svbergerem Erlaubnis zu schreiben.
[21:51] <DenSchub> flaburgan: i fear you are a bit too late to get a summary
[21:51] <DenSchub> we're almost done with our last agenda item..^^
[21:51] <DenSchub> eh, i guess we are done?
[21:51] <jaywink> last?
[21:52] <svbergerem> dammit
[21:52] <DenSchub> we skipped GitHub issue tags?
[21:52] <jaywink> so what, no one wants to talk about an IRL meetup? :)
[21:52] <DenSchub> lol
[21:53] <goobs> We just skipped ahead as jaywink was so keen...
[21:53] <DenSchub> sorry, i'm hurrying a bit. i just had goobs "But would it be better to discuss it more informally, within D?" in mind
[21:53] <flaburgan> i have a good news to say before the end
[21:53] <flaburgan> (i'll read the log anyway)
[21:53] <goobs> jaywink, as I say I like the idea but think it would be better to chat about in D.
[21:53] <DenSchub> go ahead, sir!
[21:54] <goobs> There was more communication stuff:
[21:54] <svbergerem> btw: good evening everyone ;)
[21:54] <jaywink> hey svbergerem :)
[21:54] <flaburgan> the really famous (in France) framasoft association is going to set up a big french pod: (already online)
[21:54] <goobs> What kind of communication do we want through Diaspora HQ and the blog? Do we need more formal guidelines?
[21:54] <goobs> Hey svbergerem. Good to see you.
[21:55] <jaywink> and do we need someone to keep me from blabbering too much on facebook and twitter :D (the official accounts)
[21:55] <jaywink> flaburgan, that is awesome, nice :)
[21:55] <flaburgan> jaywink, there is never too much communication on FB or twitter
[21:55] <DenSchub> yes there is.
[21:55] <flaburgan> jaywink, until you have a badbuzz :p
[21:56] <raven24> I think the FB and Twitter is quite OK right now
[21:56] <flaburgan> jaywink, to be honest, I never checked what you published there
[21:56] <flaburgan> could I have two links?
[21:56] <svbergerem> I am following the diaspora* account on facebook and I didn't notice "too much blabbering"
[21:56] <jaywink> flaburgan, and
[21:57] <flaburgan> thx
[21:57] <DenSchub> i don't think the reshare of my (geraspora team) statement yesterday was great
[21:57] <flaburgan> DenSchub, yeah
[21:57] <DenSchub> that's something pod-internal and i don't think everyone agrees with my opinion
[21:57] <flaburgan> I agree diaspora HQ should be used more carefully
[21:57] <jaywink> what was that?
[21:57] <flaburgan> at least on a more official way
[21:57] <flaburgan> jaywink, a post about "don't abuse the report button"
[21:57] <jaywink> half of the dhq posts never arrive on my pod
[21:58] <svbergerem> yeah I agree that that post should not have been reshared
[21:58] <DenSchub> for reference:
[21:58] <goobs> Oh, that was me. I thought it had a wider use/interest.
[21:58] <svbergerem> but I didn't notice anything like that before
[21:59] <DenSchub> i might have, but that's a pod-internal statement, goobs. other podmins might think different(tm)
[22:00] <jaywink> but I guess DHQ can also be about "interesting things or opinions" in the diasporasphere - not necessarely written in stone by the project - stuff
[22:00] <goobs> I should have asked permission first in that case, I guess.
[22:00] <goobs> So what would be the best way to decide on some guidelines
[22:01] <-- fla (~nodebot@ hat diesen Server verlassen (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
[22:01] <jaywink> personally I would not take a too strict line. it's better to have content than to be too careful
[22:01] <flaburgan> (just reading the backlog, the DDOS entry was mine, was ddos like one month ago)
[22:01] <goobs> I think it can include: Release announcements; welcoming new members; posts about what is going on 'behind the scenes' in Diaspora; requests for volunteers to help with specific tasks (development and other); other useful information; occasional reshares of useful posts.
[22:02] <goobs> Which is kind of a wide scope… :)
[22:02] <raven24> jaywink: ++
[22:02] <DenSchub> goobs++, but not any kind of announcement from podmins
[22:03] <goobs> Yeh sorry about that. The bit in English seemed like a general statement. I should have been more careful.
[22:03] <goobs> I've tried to delete the reshare, but won't respond...
[22:03] <DenSchub> don't worryyyyyy
[22:03] <DenSchub> nothing pad happend. could have been worse ;)
[22:03] <svbergerem> DenSchub++
[22:04] <goobs> Thanks.
[22:05] <goobs> Shall jaywink, fla and I work on a draft guidelines, as we're the ones who are going to be posting from DHQ and blog, and then present it for approval at next meeting?
[22:05] <goobs> May not need to be too formal, but let's work on it and see what we come up with.
[22:05] <DenSchub> yeah, why not :)
[22:05] <raven24> yeah, a wiki page might be good :
[22:05] <raven24> :)
[22:05] <flaburgan> what about simply submit the post to other people before posting it?
[22:06] <raven24> maybe collect a few do/donts
[22:06] <flaburgan> ^ that's for the blog, it's maybe too heavy for the diaspora HQ account
[22:06] <jaywink> for blog, yes, for DHQ no please, no review process
[22:06] <jaywink> but a wiki entry for best practises would be good
[22:06] <goobs> flaburgan, yes for the blog, but guidelines will help prevent writing things that get a 'no' vote :)
[22:07] <goobs> OK, jaywink and flaburgan are you happy to work with me on that via a pad somewhere?
[22:08] <svbergerem> So flaburgan, goob and jaywink are the new social media task force? ;)
[22:08] <DenSchub> "new"? ;)
[22:08] <jaywink> goobs, if you start :D
[22:09] <jaywink> svbergerem, I guess we ended up as so ;)
[22:09] <flaburgan> svbergerem, well you're welcome if you want to join us
[22:09] <jaywink> we should really list roles etc in the wiki
[22:09] <jaywink> just for transparency
[22:09] <jaywink> so we can point people to somewhere where there is a list of people doing stuff
[22:10] <goobs> Sure, I'll write a draft.
[22:10] <jaywink> now people still remember the old core team and *no where* in the project page does it say anything else about some community dudes (by names)
[22:10] <flaburgan> just wanted to say that I spent my week end on Montpellier in the south of the France, and *many* people came and thanked me to host them on diaspora-fr, so I'm more motivated to work on diaspora* than ever
[22:10] <flaburgan> we will rock!
[22:10] <svbergerem> flaburgan: I am really happy with the stuff you are doing and don't have that much time right now
[22:10] <goobs> That's great news, flaburgan!
[22:10] <flaburgan> svbergerem, write code is the most important task ;)
[22:10] <goobs> I need my supper. Shall we quickly cover github tags? Then decide date for FSSN meeting.
[22:11] <DenSchub> ++for spec, --for loomio
[22:11] <flaburgan> what does supper mean?
[22:11] <DenSchub> if there is something to discuss on loomio, we should simply close that issue
[22:11] <goobs> Should we add two new tags for better controlling of issues:
[22:11] <goobs> * 'needs loomio' - if issue needs a Loomio vote whether it is "wanted or not"
[22:11] <goobs> * 'needs spec' - if issue needs specification work _before_ coding should start
[22:11] <DenSchub> flaburgan: dinner ;)
[22:11] <goobs> Oops, DenSchub faster than me.
[22:11] <flaburgan> hey, is it me or there is a "problem" with loomio? like, many people coming saying "you should do that" instead of real (and useful) discussion?
[22:11] <DenSchub> ;)
[22:11] <goobs> Yeh, sorry, posh way of saying dinner.
[22:12] <DenSchub> (now you have to explain what 'posh' means. :p)
[22:12] <flaburgan> exactly ^^
[22:12] <raven24> about tags: agree with denschub
[22:12] <goobs> flaburgan yes and we discussed it a while ago. In response I updated and jaywink added some instructions  to the loomio group page.
[22:12] <flaburgan> okay I'll have a look
[22:13] <goobs> posh - it's a class thing...
[22:13] <goobs> But there still is a problem with loomio. I just politely point people to the wiki page.
[22:13] <jaywink> well, it's a positive problem in a way
[22:14] <jaywink> it indicates more activity
[22:14] <goobs> Yeh, 'problem' is too harsh. It's good to have more people wanting to contribute.
[22:14] <jaywink> but we need to just make it more clear what it is for
[22:14] <goobs> On tags, I agree with DenSchub - 'needs spec' could be useful (although not sure about the name), if an issue needs Loomio discussion/vote, a repo admin should just post that in a comment and close the issue.
[22:15] <jaywink> but about the tags - 'need spec' - agreed. but I don't agree we should close feature requests if there is a vote needed
[22:15] <goobs> But with these things I think repo admins should decide - so DenSchub, jhass, raven24, jaywink and fabianrbz.
[22:15] <jaywink> we shouldn't close feature requests at all until it has been decided it's not wanted
[22:15] <raven24> the "need spec" might need a better name, but it could be useful
[22:15] <jaywink> so I don't see why a pending decision should close an issue?
[22:16] <DenSchub> we should close them and reopen the issues on demand
[22:16] <svbergerem> jaywink: I'd like to keep the github issues as clean as possible and loomio discussions can take a while
[22:16] <jaywink> by that logic we should close most of the feature requests :)
[22:16] <DenSchub> open issues are items on a huge todo list. undecided features are no tasks, so they shouldn't be in the issues tracker. #imho
[22:16] <svbergerem> DenSchub: full ack
[22:17] <raven24> +1
[22:17] <jaywink> well in theory yes, but github issues is not just an issue tracker, it's also a feature tracker
[22:17] <jaywink> since we don't have any other feature tracker
[22:17] <svbergerem> with features someone should work on
[22:17] <goobs> features are a subset of issues, aren't they? Something which is missing rather than something which is broken.
[22:17] <jaywink> sure, but who decides what is missing?
[22:17] <svbergerem> but there might be features we don't want
[22:18] <goobs> "who decides what is missing?" - Loomio.
[22:18] <jaywink> exactly
[22:18] <jaywink> thus - 'needs loomio'
[22:18] <jaywink> otherwise we should just close *all* features
[22:18] <DenSchub> that's not true
[22:18] <jaywink> until someone opens a vote on them on loomio
[22:18] <DenSchub> there are feature requests we voted for on loomio
[22:19] <DenSchub> and those are real tasks
[22:19] <svbergerem> there are a lot of features we all agree on
[22:19] <goobs>  No, there are features everyone is agreed on (so don't need a vote), and features which have succeeded in a loomio vote.
[22:19] <jaywink> there are also a lot that we haven't discussed
[22:19] <goobs> It's only when a new proposal is made which is complex/controversial.
[22:19] <jaywink> things like "import facebook feed"
[22:19] <jaywink> which is open
[22:19] <jaywink> but will never happen
[22:19] <jaywink> :)
[22:20] <jaywink> I don't agree we should close features
[22:20] <svbergerem> well if someone doesn't like a feature request he/she could ask for a loomio vote
[22:20] <jaywink> unless we open another feature tracker
[22:20] <svbergerem> then we close the issue because we don't know if it is a feature request we really want
[22:21] <jaywink> that is exactly what diaspora, inc was doing
[22:21] <svbergerem> and reopen it once we found out that we agree on that feature
[22:21] <jaywink> closing features as "not needed"
[22:22] <goobs> It's not about 'not needed', it's more about 'not ready to be worked on'.
[22:22] <raven24> agree to disagree? maybe postpone the decision on feature handling?
[22:22] <svbergerem> we don't close the features as "not needed". We close them and say: "let's discuss that first before we put it in our issue tracker"
[22:22] <jaywink> I didn't know we even close feature requests :) until now
[22:22] <jaywink> I haven't seen any closed
[22:23] <goobs> And give a clear explanation can be given in a comment when closing issues so it doesn't feel arbitary and heavy-handed.
[22:23] <DenSchub> jaywink: we are already doing that *a lot*
[22:23] <jaywink> hmmm I cannot remember any
[22:24] <DenSchub> jonne is too fast for us :)
[22:24] <goobs> Quickly, is everyone agreed to add a 'need spec' tag?
[22:24] <DenSchub> ++
[22:24] <raven24> +1
[22:25] <jaywink> yeah
[22:25] <svbergerem> +1
[22:25] <jaywink> please don't go annoying the community by closing feature requests
[22:25] <jaywink> not that I have noticed anyone doing so
[22:25] <jaywink> so kinda surprised :)
[22:25] <svbergerem> jaywink:
[22:26] <DenSchub> jaywink: ... by yourself :)
[22:26] <jaywink> svbergerem, a clear decision there by several core members
[22:27] <goobs> OK, then on loomio, it sounds as though we won't decide tonight.
[22:27] <goobs> Sounds like a majority not in favour of adding a tag for loomio. The sticking point is on whether to close issues when they're moved to loomio.
[22:27] <jaywink> DenSchub, well that is a pull request not a feature request
[22:28] <goobs> Perhaps the repo admins can decide this amongst themselves separately?
[22:28] <jaywink> or we can vote on github so we don't have to close the issue :D
[22:28] <jaywink> (sorry I'll shut up)
[22:29] <svbergerem> goobs: if we don't close that issue we should use a needs_loomio tag (imo)
[22:30] <goobs> Or an admin can comment 'This needs discussion in Loomio before it can proceed', add a link to Loomio discussion when there is one, rather than using a tag.
[22:30] <goobs> Tags are for finding issues - is anyone going to need to find a list of issues moved to Loomio, except to close them?
[22:31] <svbergerem> IMO one should be able to see if we want to implement a feature without opening that issue
[22:31] <goobs> Chaps, I need to go soon. Can we agree a date to discuss FSSN now, then I'll leave you to continue discussion the tags point.
[22:32] <DenSchub> i don't think we can, we're still waiting for them to answer...
[22:32] <jaywink> any suggestions?
[22:32] <DenSchub> +1 month?
[22:32] <jaywink> we can discuss about kicking their butts
[22:32] <jaywink> and sean can talk us over not to
[22:32] <raven24> let's do the doodle-thingy again
[22:32] <raven24> but ~ +1 month
[22:33] <jaywink> raven24, +1 for doodle-thingy
[22:33] <jaywink> as long as it doesn't have a million checkboxes like last time :D
[22:33] <jaywink> maybe jsut agree the date first
[22:33] <DenSchub> lol, jup
[22:33] <goobs> DenSchub - we can discuss how to deal with the lack of reply… (Whether to chase them, who will be the contact who does this…)
[22:33] <DenSchub> goobs: ack
[22:34] <goobs> I'd suggest meeting in a couple of weeks. Will wait for the dudle then!
[22:34] <goobs> Even if we can't decide much yet, we can at least discuss how we want to proceed...
[22:35] <DenSchub> enjoy your meal!
[22:35] <jaywink> great :)
[22:35] <DenSchub> :)
[22:35] <goobs> Eg Tuesday 22 July at 18.30 UTC?
[22:35] <DenSchub> works for me
[22:35] <DenSchub> but lets doodle that :)
[22:35] <jaywink> hmm not good for me - I'll prob be somewhere with the family then, that whole week
[22:35] <raven24> yep
[22:36] <jaywink> so doodle plz :)
[22:36] <svbergerem> +1 for doodle
[22:36] <jaywink> anyone want to dump the logs in the wiki?
[22:36] <flaburgan> don't have it sorry
[22:37] <flaburgan> hey just wanted to know
[22:37] <flaburgan> the new french pod which is coming, framasphere
[22:37] <goobs> Great, thanks everyone. I'll leave you to discuss the tags. I'll update the meeting outcomes, jaywink would you be happy to add the IRC logs if you