Time and date
Tuesday 11 March 2014, 7.30 PM UTC. #diaspora-meeting @ FreeNode.
Topics to discuss
Fla: We released a 0.3.0.2 hotfix but we wanted to test it first. So we made it available and said to podmins "if you want to test it please test it". Unfortunately, as far as I know, we didn't have any feedback. It would be nice to create a list of podmins, the ones who are running the dev branch, the ones who could be okay to test a pre-release like this hotfix, and the other ones. That way, it would be way more easier to contact the right person to inform them and ask for feedback.
Easy way for users to give some feedback
TL;DR: Do you think we need to improve the situation? What would be the best solution?
Steffen: I didn't want to open a new discussion on Loomio because this topic mainly affects diaspora developers. (How important is user feedback? In which way would we like to get that?)
I had a discussion with another user about that topic and also some friends who just joined diaspora* (Yay, thank you facebook and WhatsApp) told me that there is no easy way for users to give feedback.
We have Loomio which is great for discussing controversial topics and to decide which solution we want to adopt. We have github which is great to report bugs or keep track of missing features. IMO both platforms are not suitable for a "standard user" who has some small suggestions which could be even quite easy to implement. The solutions that came up were
1. A tool similar to Ubuntu brainstorm: Users can add suggestions, other users can vote on them. (Similar to Loomio but without all those developers talking technical gibberish from a users point of view) We would have to point out that this tool is just about getting feedback. The real votes will still be on Loomio and we still need developers to work on that issues.
2. A tool similar to diaspora.shapado.com: Users can ask questions / add suggestions. Experienced users answer the questions, add the suggestions on github/Loomio or tell a user if the suggestions has already been added on github/Loomio or tell him the reason why we won't implement it. The best case would be that those "experienced users" are a thousand clones of goob. ;)
3. Similar to the second one but use the existing tags on diaspora (#bug, #feature, #question). We still have some "experienced users" who follow those tags and answer the questions / help to arbitrate between users and developers.
Those ideas might be integrated in the existing tools we use (github/Loomio/diaspora*) or use completely new tools.
Use of Loomio
Goob: There is an increasing number of threads being started in Loomio which are either feature requests duplicating previous discussions or are not appropriate for Loomio. We have pages such as Discussion and voting, but the message doesn't seem to be getting through. Any other ideas?
Fla: A friend of mine tested diaspora-fr a few days ago and reported to me that he succeeded to throw many 500 errors. He said that those are not particularly security leaks, but it means that the code doesn't catch every possible cases correctly so there possibly are security problems. What do we want to do with that? Should I open a github issue for each 500 he saw? Should I open only one issue? Should I simply put the logs somewhere accessible only to people who wants to work on?
What did we decide?
Mailing lists are the best way to keep podmins and other persons interested about d* updated. We don't want to promote the Google Groups tool, so we will see if we can host ourselves first and then promote the list. The discussion continues on loomio: https://www.loomio.org/d/oasCl9wk/running-our-own-mailing-lists
Easy way for users to give some feedback
Using an external tool is not fine, it forces users to register elsewhere and many of them will not do it. So we keep the usage of tags inside diaspora*, but we will change the indications in the right side bar to be more precise. Maybe use of the #feedback tag? Mention of diasporahq? Link to Current and future development to avoid same suggestion to be request over and over again? The discussion continues on loomio: https://www.loomio.org/d/ZLmPyeni/adding-a-link-to-github-issues-instead-of-a-bug-tag
Use of Loomio
DenSchub: ahoy. svbergerem: hey flaburgan: hey svbergerem jaywink: kaboom svbergerem: hey flaburgan DenSchub: swoooosh jaywink: so, meeting time? DenSchub: sean is missing jaywink: ok DenSchub: not sure if he will join us today though... flaburgan: hi all DenSchub: jo fla jaywink: I'll ask, he is on fb chat flaburgan: :) ***giganetom waves flaburgan: hi giganetom flaburgan: who are you? giganetom: huspora podmin jaywink: sean said he's a bit busy so might or might not jaywink: so no point waiting for him DenSchub: great answer. ***DenSchub nods. flaburgan: giganetom, sorry goob_: raven24 said he'd be here. shall we wait? giganetom: np :) ekjygk left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). goob_: giganetom, good to see you. svbergerem: flaburgan: the developer of the opengraph feature :) flaburgan: yeah I know him with his real name ;) flaburgan: I think we can start flaburgan: dunno who is recording the conversation but he should start DenSchub: jhass should have logs, i'll have logs, too, so... flaburgan: fine jaywink: everyday I'm logging loggin flaburgan: I personally wanted to start by say thank you to everyone who contributed this month flaburgan: we had some very nice pull requests flaburgan: thanks to svbergerem for all this work on the bootstrap thing svbergerem: :) flaburgan: jhass, for the mention refactor and all the love he puts in the code flaburgan: raven24, for the upgrade of jquery goob_: Yeh, thanks to all developers and also to flaburgan for setting up these meetings. flaburgan: ^^ flaburgan: I don't particularly want to lead the meeting flaburgan: we could try to do it all together? katenok left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). svbergerem: and thanks to Hawkeye goob_ svbergerem: ;) goob_: He he. jaywink: flaburgan, imho someone should "lead the talk" - can do if you don't want to ;) flaburgan: jaywink, yeah why not goob_: 'Lead' really means introduce each item; we can all try to move the discussion on. jaywink: goob_, yeah flaburgan: you did a great job if I remember correctly jaywink: so yeah let's start with whatever we have in the wiki if no objections.. jaywink: first topic: Podmins list goob_: flaburgan, you want to talk about this one? DenSchub: window splitv DenSchub: oh, missing /, nvm jaywink: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140311#Podmins_list flaburgan: Yeah, I noted that because I think we need a way to easily contact all podmins flaburgan: unfortunately, diaspora* seems to not really be the good option to do thtat flaburgan: that* flaburgan: we first need a list flaburgan: after that we could mention them in diaspora, or write them an e-mail flaburgan: that's why the mailing list is initially done, but because it's Google nobody really uses it jaywink: I wish we had a central hub we could make the server register themselves if the podmin wants to, like a simple table with host and podmin email *wink *wink* flaburgan: and we don't promote it either flaburgan: jaywink, that would be nice jaywink: we could maintain a list manually - but it would be extra work and always out of date with pods coming and going flaburgan: I think being able to contact podmins is important for different cases, when we want to warn about an hotfix, when we need feedback about a special release, when we want to say that curl should be > 7.32 ... jaywink: and public lists are not good, wiki for example svbergerem: a central hub sounds good but we need someone who implements that jaywink: svbergerem, I offered to do it sometime earlier but it got really negative feedback on loomio, so I just made the statistics thingy svbergerem: jaywink: as long as it is opt-in I don't see any problem at all jaywink: I guess ruby would be good anyway, if it would be something living in the project homepage... flaburgan: jaywink, I think the negative feedback was due to a misunderstanding flaburgan: nobody will say no to a fusion of poduptime and your stats hub on pods.diasporafoundation.org flaburgan: we "just" have to implement it and make it live flaburgan: jaywink, do you still want to deal with that? svbergerem: flaburgan: a fusion of poduptime and pods.jasonrobinson.me is a different task, even if that is related jaywink: flaburgan, yeah, just been hit with some other stuff lately so the hub hasn't had any updates jaywink: svbergerem, true jaywink: well, depending on IF we want an opt-in registration and if we do, would we be happy with a non-ruby app jaywink: if we would be - the hub is kinda already there :) svbergerem: jaywink: python? jaywink: svbergerem, node.js flaburgan: jaywink, the hub is nice but it does not correspond to what we could present at an "official" list of pods at the moment flaburgan: but we could surely help you to improve it svbergerem: I don't know that much about node.js, sorry jaywink: basically it already has the /register route which only adds a pod after calling it back and verifying it has a statistics.json route. then we could add to the config a setting "register: false/true" which would then show up in the statistics json also - the pod would only be added if that is true.. the problem I guess is exposing podmin email - would that be there too? jaywink: but I guess the question is - do we want a registration hook in the core code jaywink: and if not - what other options are there for podmin lists? flaburgan: you're right saying that the hub and the podmins list is different jaywink: IMHO - I think making the app itself register if the podmin just sets the config is the easiest and self-maintaining way. just needs a few small things in the code and a place to register to flaburgan: imo we should use a mailing list, and promote it on the install pages of the wiki svbergerem: jaywink, we already talked about that when talking about spam flaburgan: and maybe on the default welcome page too svbergerem: so the central hub would be useful for all kind of stuff jaywink: mailing list is fine if we could just get podmins to sign up.. flaburgan: jaywink, I'm sure we can, it's just that I don't want to promote usage of a Google tool flaburgan: and I guess many think like me flaburgan: see https://www.loomio.org/d/oasCl9wk/running-our-own-mailing-lists jaywink: well, not much opinions coming out - maybe reopen that then on loomio? flaburgan: Let summarize that svbergerem: I'd say reopen the discussion on loomio about a central hub mentioning the use cases flaburgan: what is the best way to contact podmins? flaburgan: diaspora HQ ? By mentioning them? Mailing list? jaywink: well, automatic registration (opt-in) would be the coolest IMHO but mailing list will do surely flaburgan: svbergerem, I don't really see the link with the hub, except if you plan to automatically collect emails. Imo, podmins will not want to display publicly their emails svbergerem: no, the emails shouldn't be public jaywink: flaburgan, well no reason for everything in the database to be visible on the page :) flaburgan: svbergerem, how can you collect them then? flaburgan: we don't have an authentication system giganetom: I feel that a mailing list is the most effective solution flaburgan: yeah, me too giganetom: We can still add some automation to that too jaywink: flaburgan, well it could be easily done by passing the email in the register call as a post param, then the hub just verifies it when it calls back giganetom: like a button on the D* admin that sends a subscribe or roughly along these lines. jaywink: by using some token ... ,but yeah mailing list :) goob_: I'd love us to host our own mailing list... goob_: but I realise that would involve a lot of work on someone else's part. jaywink: goob_, prob not a huge amount but hey, work for no benefit, imho :) jaywink: but we have loomio to continue with this? shoudl we just agree we will aim to get all podmins on a mailing list? flaburgan: okay so what about a post with diaspora HQ saying "We saw that it was not easy to contact all podmins and we want to propose you to join our mailing list to be warned about every important news which could affect your pod. Actually, we are using Google Groups. We'd like to get ride of it, but have no time to set up our own mailing list. You know how to deal with mailman and have a little bit of time? That's the occasion to help flaburgan: us!" flaburgan: >shoudl we just agree we will aim to get all podmins on a mailing list? flaburgan: agree DenSchub: who'd host it? ;) flaburgan: DenSchub, the one who will set it up? Or if we want to keep control on it... you? :p jaywink: flaburgan, the trouble with someone hosting mailing lists is that if that person gets bored - the list dies DenSchub: i'm out of ipv4 addresses, that's why i asked jaywink: but guys, loomio :D DenSchub: yep. flaburgan: well, it's easier to discuss about it know :p flaburgan: now* DenSchub: i could host it, but i'd have to talk with the ripe... ;D flaburgan: but okay, I'm going to post about that on loomio flaburgan: so, contact podmins -> promote the mailing list giganetom: ( or just fck the system and host in on ipv6 :) definitely less spam there! ) DenSchub: lol svbergerem: by the way the hub could be added later to handle the mailinglist subscriptions DenSchub: end-users should be able to use that :) flaburgan: do we want to finish about an official list of the diaspora* pods? giganetom: ok svbergerem: sure, let's move that to loomio jaywink: so conclusion -> mailing lists rule, flaburgan will push self-hosted mailing lists on loomio ;) flaburgan: okay jaywink: NEXT -> Easy way for users to give some feedback jaywink: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140311#Easy_way_for_users_to_give_some_feedback svbergerem: yep svbergerem: i talked to some new and some old users svbergerem: who think that it is hard to give feedback svbergerem: github is bad for getting simple feedback svbergerem: and I heard that there is too much "tech-talk" on loomio svbergerem: also loomio is about discussing and voting on stuff svbergerem: and I don't want to end up with 200 small threads about small improvements jaywink: yeah agree flaburgan: yeah, there is too much "you should do that" discussion on loomio, that's the next topic jaywink: using tags would be great but hey, no public tag federation, so it isn't :) flaburgan: jaywink, #troll :p but I agree... flaburgan: mention of the dhq account? jaywink: but maybe the best we can do.. unless we really want another tool which imho given the track record with some of the previous ones doesn't sound like a good idea raven24: yeah, using another tool won't be helpful, probably DenSchub: mh. a mailing list could be a great place to discuss :) flaburgan: DenSchub, yeah, was thinking about that too jaywink: usually when someone posts on the diaspora-discuss list only 50/50 times someone replies jaywink: if that was "official" way of giving feedback, it would have to be more than that flaburgan: the problem is, we already have a massive todo list flaburgan: so when people come and point something which was already pointed two years ago and at least 20 times flaburgan: it's hard to answer quietly :p svbergerem: we have a massive todo list with big features / bugs svbergerem: but there might be small improvements which are suitable for newcomers svbergerem: as I said I talked to some new users and they had some good ideas for some small improvements flaburgan: my point is, if it's easy to make suggestion, it will quickly become a place for the "What, this was requested 2 years ago? But what the f*ck are you doing? Is diaspora* a dead project?" svbergerem: but they did not know how to tell others about it jaywink: imho we could just refactor the sidebar texts to make it more clear that to give feedback, use for example #diaspora flaburgan: svbergerem, for this kind of use cases, I suggest mention diaspora HQ flaburgan: goob_, jaywink or me will read it, and if it is something valuable, we will open an issue on github svbergerem: flaburgan: whatever we decide to do we need to tell our users how to do it flaburgan: svbergerem, in the right side bar, we are going to change the content there flaburgan: I can do that flaburgan: I refactored it to prepare it jaywink: that would be great svbergerem: ok so what would be the best solution? mention diasporahq? I that case we should also think of a tag so other users can follow those suggestions easily flaburgan: I would say, tags only to ask help to the community, mention diasporahq to be sure to be heard by us flaburgan: let's discuss about that here: https://www.loomio.org/d/ZLmPyeni/adding-a-link-to-github-issues-instead-of-a-bug-tag svbergerem: ok giganetom: ok jaywink: the mention diaspora hq depends on pods having autofollow of that account - so not the best solution in that regard jaywink: plus all pods having that setting enabled is killing the whole account :) jaywink: because you cannot mention unless you follow jaywink: so imho, #diaspora tag would be better - but of course nobody might see it :) goob_: Would the #feedback tag be a useful method? goob_: #diaspora is too general, I think - thousands of people who don't want to see feedback probably follow #diaspora. svbergerem: #diaspora-feedback ? jaywink: goob_, true flaburgan: jaywink, maybe a hack to be able to mention diasporahq (or any admin account?) without having to share with them? jaywink: imho just #feedback ? nice and simple. but of course there is no guarantee anyone will see it flaburgan: do you agree with my summarize? flaburgan: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140311#Easy_way_for_users_to_give_some_feedback_2 jaywink: flaburgan, well a button that sends an email to email@example.com would be easier and less hacky - and would always work :) flaburgan: nice idea :) svbergerem: jaywink: it would be great if other users see the stuff others suggested svbergerem: otherwise we see the same suggestions over and over jaywink: svbergerem, true svbergerem: #feedback might be too general svbergerem: flaburgan: I'd say remove the diasporahq part from the wiki goob_: I tried to give a list of things already requested in https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Current_and_future_development goob_: That could be corrected and updated, perhaps? goob_: To prevent the same things being requested over and over. flaburgan: goob_, that could be diffused :p flaburgan: Almost nobody knows that this page exist flaburgan: we have to clean the wiki and better link pages svbergerem: asking user to go to our wiki and see if their suggestion has been added before? I don't think many of those will do that dturovs left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). flaburgan: wiki edited flaburgan: svbergerem, at least the curious ones will do flaburgan: currently, nobody does :p jaywink: ok so summa summarum? flaburgan: okay, we agreed that we have to keep feedback inside diaspora flaburgan: we will update the right side bar to inform users about that svbergerem: I looked up the #feedback tag and there is already some stuff which is not related to diaspora flaburgan: let's discuss on loomio about what we will exactly say there jaywink: great - really think it's the best we can do, with limited resources eg jaywink: next... goob_: jaywink's suggestion of a button that sends an email to firstname.lastname@example.org sounds good. goob_: But we'll discuss on Loomio. jaywink: goob_, yeah but no one else will be able to comment was a good point from svbergerem flaburgan: next topic is loomio flaburgan: goob_, you noted that jaywink: ---> Use of Loomio jaywink: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140311#Use_of_Loomio goob_: Yeh, just seems a lot of things on Loomio that don't really belong there. jaywink: I don't see what we can do except restrict loomio invites - which imho is not a good idea goob_: Again, people not finding the information about using Loomio in the wiki goob_: Anyone have any ideas? svbergerem: Do we really promote using Loomio? goob_: The only thing I can think of is a notice (sticky if possible) on the main section of the Loomio group to inform people how to use the group. DenSchub: it's the first item on "how we communicate", so i guess we're fine. flaburgan: goob_, nice suggestion svbergerem: I just wonder where those users come from DenSchub: maybe expand that section a little bit? :) jaywink: goob_, yeah that would be great if loomio supports that goob_: svbergerem, yes Loomio is our main tool for governance and voting (and is promoted as such). svbergerem: goob, I know what Loomio is about but where do we promote it? (except for the wiki where we also tell how to use it) goob_: jaywink as you're a loomio admin, want to see if there's anything like that in their system? If so I can put together some text. svbergerem: a question would be great you have to answer when requesting a loomio invite: "What do we use Loomio for? (Hint: you find the answer in our wiki)" ;) jaywink: goob_, I'm only a "part admin" but I just checked my other loomio group which I have created for another thingy - there is no sticky threads - only the Group Description part jaywink: and it's limited in length flaburgan: svbergerem, loomio is not limited beta anymore flaburgan: no invit are needed goob_: flaburgan but you still have to request group membership before you can post. jaywink: wouldn't like to be the one doing the rejecting .. :) goob_: jaywink I guess we could put link to wiki page about using Loomio in the group description... flaburgan: but you can post directly in the loomio group, don't you? goob_: And perhaps a gentle reminder to the people who are posting the non-relevant threads... flaburgan: do we can delete threads now? raven24: about the feedback & loomio issues - we can also include them as items in our help pages goob_: flaburgan try setting up a fresh Loomio account and posting in a group... goob_: hi raven24! svbergerem: raven24: we can do that but imho that is not enough jaywink: flaburgan, the admins of each sub group can delete discussions jaywink: I can for example in the lowest base group and packaging :) flaburgan: okay cool jaywink: I think sean is still holding the supah power rights... raven24: @goob hi ;) jaywink: hmmm no jaywink: I can see a make coordinator button too :P raven24: svbergerem: yes, but including it there will make it visible for people who might be looking for it there flaburgan: so, summary flaburgan: ? jaywink: but only for groups I rule on jaywink: raven24, +1 svbergerem: raven24: +1 goob_: So we can beef up info in wiki page on Loomio, add info to help pages in D*, and perhaps add link to wiki page in the group description in Loomio. goob_: Does that sound reasonable? jaywink: goob_, sounds awesome - any AP's? :) goob_: wots an AP? goob_: Apart from aged parent... flaburgan: :p jaywink: haha flaburgan: I don't know neither jaywink: Action Point jaywink: eg any volunteers to make those happen goob_: Oh. I can edit text in the wiki and work with svbergerem on the help section. jaywink: I can edit the group description at least goob_: Could you jaywink add wiki page link to the group description? https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Discussion_and_voting jaywink: great :) let me know if you want anything on loomio made better, on the base group at least jaywink: ok sure goob_: And I guess we can all gently remind people who post irrelevant/duplicate stuff to read the info before posting... flaburgan: I let you guys edit the wiki page of the meeting to summarize that, not sure what to write jaywink: NEXT --> Security Issues jaywink: https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140311#Security_Issues svbergerem: goob: and delete those threads after 2 or 3 weeks jonsger left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds). raven24: for the record, we have a special email address to disclose security issues responsibly flaburgan: raven24, yeah, I talked about that with jhass flaburgan: my point here was, it looks like we are not really testing the input of the user in many parts of diaspora flaburgan: my friend only played with the "upload your avatar" input raven24: (https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/How_to_report_a_bug#Reporting_security_issues) svbergerem: oh and for the record we could add that email address to the sidebar flaburgan: svbergerem, hm, it will quickly become overloaded, maybe we need a help page about that, and link to the help page in the sidebar? flaburgan: so my friend didn't really find an real issue jhass: svbergerem: I disagree. It's in the wiki and in our README flaburgan: that's why I didn't write an email jhass: anyone who's to take serious will find that jaywink: jhass, yeah I think too, anyone who _would_ report a security issue properly knows how to do it :) jhass: oh, damn, the wiki is outdated svbergerem: flaburgan, jhass: alright, that's why I said "could". You are right, that was a bad idea DenSchub: jhass: fixed. jaywink: so, anything to discuss, since we already have a process for security problems? if in doubt, better just email the address .. doesn't cost anything :) jhass: DenSchub: except that the key is wrong :P DenSchub: is it? jhass: Oh it isn't. DenSchub: ;) jaywink: flaburgan, did you want to discuss something further with this? goob_: *tumbleweed* DenSchub: moved that notive to the very top, just to make sure nobody reports security issues on github jaywink: anybody got something else? got to go soon myself, of course that doesn't mean the meeting needs to end :) DenSchub: s/notive/notice/ jaywink: DenSchub, ok cool jaywink: we should do our "are we going to release" thingy too jaywink: so - should we release? goob_: I think leave it for hotfixes (if any) and wait until things such as jQuery 10 are tested and ready to release. raven24: ... we still have the 'mentions' regression since the jQ 10 update jaywink: agree goob_: But will cede to the experts... svbergerem: I'd say we should wait until next month and see if we are ready to release then DenSchub: svbergerem++, also that's not on our topics list and we're using way too much time here :) jaywink: well, "should we release" is on every meeting topic automatically :) goob_: DenSchub, we agreed to vote on releasing/not releasing at each meeting. svbergerem: DenSchub: We decided to talk about that every month DenSchub: oh gosh goob_: Oops, mobbing, sorry! DenSchub: shame on me jaywink: :D goob_: Go and stand in the corner. ***DenSchub nods and walks away goob_: Unless anyone feels we should release this month, shall we wrap up our meeting? svbergerem: there is the fssn thing left DenSchub: are we ready to talk about that (yet)? jaywink: well, speak up anyone if you want to :) goob_: I strongly believe we shouldn't talk about the contents of an email marked confidential without first goob_: telling the sender we intend to do this and giving them chance to goob_: amend the contents accordingly with this in mind. jaywink: imho I'd be happy to wait for the response to jonne's queries DenSchub: ++ that DenSchub: maybe to a special meeting in 2 weeks just about that topic? DenSchub: (more meetings == less time per meeting == gooood.) goob_: It probably needs its own meeting at some point, not sure we'll have solid info in 2 weeks though. jaywink: DenSchub, assuming there is a response before that - not the fastest communciators DenSchub: true story. raven24: so, yeah, another meeting when we know what's what goob_: Shall we book a meeting time just for this once they have responded jhass's questions? jaywink: but need to go, thanks guys for the meeting, talk to you all later.. :) if someone could dump things on the wiki page would be awesome DenSchub: jaywink: have a nice day! goob_: Thanks jaywink. jaywink left the room (quit: Remote host closed the connection). goob_: I need to go too. Next meeting, same time 8 April. See you all then! DenSchub: bye! giganetom: see ya! svbergerem: Is there anything about the fssn thing that can be published right now? I just don't have any clue what this is about DenSchub: so... since two of us are gone now, i suggest shifting "official list of pods" to the next meeting DenSchub: svbergerem: we could publish something, but that wouldn't be fair ;) raven24: fine with postponing 'list of pods' svbergerem: DenSchub: ok, thank you goob_: svbergerem, it's follow-up from the FSSN item in last month's meeting. Sean wrote to them, we just received a response, but it doesn't really clarify the important questions from https://wiki.diasporafoundation.org/Meetings/20140211#Action_points:_2 goob_: OK, must go, bye everyone. goob_ left the room. DenSchub: so... this is it, i guess? SuperTux88 left the room (quit: Ping timeout: 245 seconds). jhass: I guess DenSchub: great. off for another meeting...